Recent questions to the NRC

Revised 010109

 

 

Links to items on this page:

 

Use of luminous and/or fibre optic sights

Number of rounds loaded – International 1920 Match

WA1500

Grip Safeties

Position of 10m paper targets in the target carrier

WA1500 - Reloading when changing positions

25 Yards BP RF Stage without loading benches

Sight Ribs / 25 Yards Service Pistol

Holster Safety

Holster Belt Loops

Load too many pellets in Air Pistol

‘Coated’ projectiles

25M ISSF – when must the shooter be at the READY

Re: order of fire for barricade series – Service and wa1500

Re: with the new rule re 1 malfunction, what happens if you have a malfunction in the re-shoot?

Re: can you shorten the cylinder on a 25 Yard service pistol?

Re: 5-shot Air Pistols

Re electronic hearing protection

Re ‘blinders’ for ISSF competitions (see also latest on blinders)

Re: Tennis elbow & support bands on the arm            

Re: What’s happening to Rapid Fire Pistol                   REVISED

Re: Loading procedures, PA 25 m Black Powder:         REVISED                     

Re:  Reshoots after a Non-allowable Malfunction          REVISED

Re: Checking trigger weight

 

Use of luminous and/or fibre optic sights

 

Can luminous and/or fibre optic sights be used in PA events?

 

Response

 

 

Re inquiry on use of TruGlo tritium, tritium/fiber optic and fiber optic handgun sights in PA events


 

Sights incorporating various ‘light gathering’ inserts have been around for many decades.

 

Tritium inserts are the combination of Tritium (a radioactive isotope of hydrogen) and a phosphor to provide a light emitting insert – many luminous applications are in use (e.g. luminous watch dials, various novelty items, etc.) are produced using this combination.

It should be noted that there are a number of safety concerns relating to Tritium/phosphor devices.  There is a ban in several EU countries on the inclusion of radio-active materials into common goods like watches, etc. and in these countries tritium sights are forbidden to sell, to own, to use, to import and to export: this would preclude their use by an Australian competitor at any competition within these countries.

 

I offer no advice on the suitability for PA competitions of sights incorporating inserts of light transmitting or generating materials, other than to suggest that they can always be covered with sight black.

 

The manufacturer’s illustrations of the sights do not appear to have any adjustments for windage or elevation and this aspect might be of concern to some Firearms Registries.

 

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Compliance with the relevant competition rules of ‘open sights’ incorporating light gathering and/or luminous inserts.

 

ISSF Pistol

Technically there is no reason why these sights would be in conflict with the ISSF pistol rules.

 

PA Service Pistol / Service Pistol Unrestricted / 25 Yards Service Pistol

Technically there is no reason why these sights would be in conflict with the PA ‘Service’ rules.

 

PA Black Powder

Technically there is no reason why these sights would be in conflict with the PA Black Powder rules.

 

IMSSU Pistol

·         Production

I am unaware of any ‘Production’ pistol used for IMSSU that incorporates these sights, and any replacement sights would need to comply with the Production class rules

·         Unlimited

Technically there is no reason why these sights would be in conflict with the IMSSU pistol rules.

·         Field Pistol

Technically there is no reason why these sights would be in conflict with the IMSSU pistol rules.

 

International 1920 Match

·         Open

Technically there is no reason why these sights would be in conflict with the Bianchi pistol rules.

·         Metallic Sight

Technically there is no reason why these sights would be in conflict with the Bianchi pistol rules.

·         Production

These sights would only be compliant for a pistol or revolver which is, or has been, a catalogue item readily available to the general public equipped with these sights.

 

WA1500

·         150-shot events

Technically there is no reason why these sights would be in conflict with the WA1500 rules.

·         60-shot Distinguished Revolver

These sights would only be compliant for a pistol or revolver which is, or has been, a catalogue item readily available to the general public equipped with these sights.

·         60-shot Distinguished Semi-automatic

Open sights from any manufacturer are acceptable provided they of similar style to the original.  Whether the use of inserts could comply with “…similar style to the original…” would be a matter for the WA1500 to resolve: none were presented at the 2007 World Championships for this category with this type of sight inserts.

·         48-shot events are not included as these are not PA events at this time.

 

Spencer Tweedie

NRC Director


 

 

Number of rounds loaded – International 1920 Match

 

I am going to shoot NRA 1920 matches somebody brought up a good point

 

Are you limited in how many rounds you can load in your gun?

I am using a Smith and Wesson 686 plus which is a 7 shot revolver  can  i load all the cylinders ?

I was sure you could but somebody told me i am limited to 6

 

Response

 

There is no limit on the number of rounds you can load; indeed, some semi-auto shooters load 10 in each magazine.

Regards,

Spencer

 

 

WA1500

Spencer

I recently got hold of a copy of the NRA Rules pertaining to the 1500 match.

Two things stood out-(1) skid shots were allowed (within generous parameters), and (2) there did not appear to be any provision for penalties for foot faults, etc.

Was this the case in the recent Nationals, or were these transgressions treated as per Service Pistol?.

 

Response to WA1500

 

In order:

1.     One of the major problems is that there are not yet any ‘complete’ WA1500 Rules.  Further the NRA rulebooks are not as specific as we are accustomed with other shooting events.

2.     Skid shots are as for other NRA-based events; i.e., 1.5 x bullet diameter. (i.e. use the NRA-style overlays for scoring shot values and skid shots)

3.     Procedural Penalties, including Foot Faults are -10 (X)

These were the procedures for the Nationals

 

Regards,

Spencer

 

 

 

Could you let me know ASAP, as another competition 1500 Match is programmed to be shot in conjunction with the ASG.

 

 

Grip Safeties

 

Spencer

In regard to SA grip safeties, I had the idea that for 1920, PA was using the same rule as for Service Match.

Which is, as I was aware, safety de-activated , eg. by pining, not taped down.( this is for within Aust. )

Am I wrong & PA has adopted NRA all safeties must work? 

 

Response to Grip Safeties

 

PA took this up with our insurers, and has not been able to resolve the insurance issues.

In absence of any clear indication that the insurance will cover any disabled manufacturer’s safety feature (in this case the grip safety on 1911 type frames), PA has no option other than to continue with the requirement for 1920 Match (introduced as from 1 Jan 2006) that all safety features be operational.

 

Regards,

Spencer

 

 

Position of 10m paper targets in the target carrier

 

I have heard a rumour that a number of Air pistol shooters that when using

wind-back target carriages are placing another target (unused or old

sighter) behind the competition target and raising the competition target up

higher in the holder so as to get the base of the target away from any

distracting view of the target carriage base.

 

I thought that the practice of putting a target behind the competition

target was eliminated a few years ago, but apparantly is creeping back again

(noticed at Aus Cup I). Rule 6.3.5.1.1 "....no deviations in shooting

distances and target specifications..." and of course the general rule of

"no advantage..."

 

Your advice and comments please.

 

Position of 10m paper targets in the target carrier

 

Hi,

(for better, or worse) Accepted international ISSF practice has been to allow shooters to arrange 10m paper targets to suit - e.g. many rifle shooters put the target in rotated 45 degrees, and many pistol (and some rifle) shooters add a strip at the bottom.

Regarding 6.3.5.1.1, I don't think the thickness on one card would make a difference to the shooting distance, and as for target specifications 6.3.2.6 refers to the 'minimum visible size of target card'.

The only problem with this practice has been with shooters 'adjusting' the target carrier to accept the double target thickness and or hold the card in the higher position.  This does not always go down well with the poor sods that have to maintain the range equipment.

In short, lots of things in relation to rules are worth worrying about - provided the shooter/s do not damage the target carriers, this is not one of them.

 

Regards,

Spencer

 

 

WA1500 - Reloading when changing positions

 

Spencer,

With regard to the WA 1500 match, what is the current ruling (if any)on reloading positions?  As you know, in the PA Service Match, the competitor has to unload in the "old" position and then move to the "new" position, where he is to reload.  I am in the position of being a member of a club that shoots the Police & Services Match, in which we carry out the complete reload in the "old" position, so I have to be VERY careful when I shoot at other clubs!

Regards

 

Response to WA1500 - Reloading when changing positions

 

While the World Association 1500 website gives no indication in this area, certainly for the Australian introduction of the 150-shot matches, “…When changing position, the pistol must be obviously ‘clear’”, i.e. as for the PA Service matches.  This has been set out in the PA RO Guides for WA1500.

 

The difficulty of the difference between the ‘Police & Service’ and ‘PA Service’ procedures when changing position has been a long standing one (I remember it well).

The PA Service matches are civilian in nature; our normal condition for pistols is unloaded until needed, for ‘Police & Service’ the normal condition is loaded.  The different procedures reflect this background.

 

Regards,

Spencer

 

 

25 Yards BP RF Stage without loading benches

 

In Black Powder 25m rapid fire the new rules state;

'When using separate tables for loading - at the call of "Assume the Ready (position I assume) wait 30 seconds and then call "Attention" and activate.

When not using separate tables for loading - at the call of "Assume the Ready (position I assume again) wait 15 seconds and then call "Attention" and activate.

What has the position of tables, or using separate tables or not, have to do with the amount of time before calling "Attention" and activate.

I would appreciate clarification on this matter.  Thank you

 

Response to 25 Yards BP RF Stage without loading benches

 

1.         I must apologise for not answering the first e-mail (it came in on my laptop while away from home and I did not flag it for reply when I got back home)

2.         Change to commands for RF Stage of 25m Black Powder applies to both ‘at the bench’ and ‘separate tables behind’

 

When all shooters have loaded capped, placed their pistol in a safe condition on the bench, and stood back from the firing line,

“ASSUME THE READY”

 

 After 30 seconds,

“ATTENTION” and activate the targets

 

Regards,

Spencer

 

 

Sight Ribs / 25 Yards Service Pistol

 

With regard to the Service 25 yard match (formerly short barrel) there seems to be some controversy over the matter of equipment.

Could you please advise if rib sights may be fitted to custom made 25 yard Service guns?

Rib sights are a full length sight similar to those manufactured by Aristocrat.

There are several members of the club looking to have guns built and clearly they would like an interpretation of the rule before committing large sums of money on a gun that may end up being illegal.

Your early advice would be appreciated.

 

Response to Sight Ribs

 

When the 25 Yard Service Pistol rules were changed to reflect the changes to Australian firearms legislation, many of the previous rules on barrels were no longer applicable as there were a number of ‘heavy’ barrelled revolvers available ex factory.

 

Provided S25/ 4.1.4 Only open sights are allowed, and S25/ 4.1.4.1 Original factory pattern sights only are allowed, are met there is no problem with sight ribs.

 

Regards,

 

Spencer

 

 

 

Holster Safety

 

Hello,   

could you please tell me where i can find answers to holstered safety issues 1- placing mag in pistol while holstered.    2- after series leaving slide open in holster.   3- loading mags while people forward of line.

 

thank you.

 

Response to Holster Safety

You do not specify which holster match the questions relate to - given that holsters are used in a number of PA events, there is no ‘one’ answer to questions 2 and 3.

 

1-     Placing mag in pistol while holstered.

 

The short answer is no.

 

Service Pistol:

S 2.6 Loaded Pistols may be holstered only during and in accordance with the course of fire and under the direct command of the Range Officer. 

I.e. by implication from “…loaded pistols may be holstered…”, the pistol is loaded before holstering – not after.

 

Service Pistol Unrestricted and 25 Yards Service Pistol:

SU/S152.6 Loaded Pistols may NOT be holstered at any time. 

Inserting a magazine would be considered loading the pistol, even if the magazine was empty.

 

International 1920 Match:

Shooters reload and re-holster immediately after each series, and complete this before any personnel go forward for target changing.  The pistol is loaded before holstering, and not touched until the next series commences.

 

WA1500:

As for Service Pistol, there is a ‘LOAD’ command and shooters load and holster.  Service Pistol rule S 2.6 can be taken as applying.

 

 

2-     After series leaving slide open in holster.  

 

Service Pistol / Service Pistol Unrestricted / 25 Yards Service Pistol / WA1500:

I can see no safety problem with having the pistol with the slide open in the holster between the command ‘UNLOAD’ at the end of a series and the next command to ‘LOAD”.  Convenience would be another matter - I would not as the pistol could get dirt, lint, etc. in the action, and it would be a nuisance.

 

International 1920 Match:

Shooters reload and re-holster immediately after each series, and complete this before any personnel go forward for target changing

 

 

3-   Loading mags while people forward of line. 

 

Service Pistol / Service Pistol Unrestricted:

S/SU/ 6.2.2     Before the beginning of each subsequent stage the shooter must be allowed sufficient time to rearrange his equipment and reload magazines or speed loaders.

While the rules allow time before each ‘stage’ I can see no safety problem with loading magazines wile range personnel are forward of the firing line.

 

25 Yards Service Pistol:

S25/ 6.3.1.1      The competitor places only the correct number of rounds that are required for a particular stage, in a pocket (one only, and the same pocket throughout the course of fire).  The pocket must be standard for the garment worn, not an addition to accommodate ammunition for this competition.

No.  Magazines are loaded during the course of fire.

 

International 1920 Match / WA1500:

Shooters reload and re-holster immediately after each series, and complete this before any personnel go forward for target changing

 

 

Holster Belt Loops

 

What is the requirement on belt loops for holster matches, & where do I find them?

 

Response re Holster Belt Loops

 

The requirements for belt loops for PA Service Pistol were dropped several years ago when PA adopted the same requirements as for the Bianchi Cup competition.

 

The current Service Pistol holster equipment rules are listed below; while not word-for-word, they can be taken as applying to WA1500 and International 1920 Match.  While not separately mentioned, the belt for the holster obviously must be suitable to ensure that the holster is practical, safe, serviceable.

 

Note:

S/ 2.6.2             Shooters must have successfully completed the PA safe handling holster course and have possession of a current proficiency card

 

S/ 4.2.6.1          Holsters must be practical, safe, serviceable, and suit the pistol used.

 

S/ 4.2.6.2          Cross draw and shoulder holsters are prohibited.

 

S/ 4.2.6.3          Tie down rigs, visible or otherwise, are prohibited.

 

S/ 4.2.6.4          If a retention device is used to pass a holster test, then the retention device must be used throughout the match.

 

S/ 4.2.6.5          Unsafe Holsters:

Match Officials are required to prohibit the unsafe use of any holster by any competitor. Therefore, in choosing a holster, and the position and manner in which it will be worn, a competitor should give due regard to the safety regulations in order to ensure that his choices are safely consistent with his personal shooting style and stance.      

 

S/ 4.2.6.6          At no time whether holstered or otherwise may a loaded pistol point rearwards.

 

S/ 4.2.6.7          Whilst holstered, the trigger of the pistol must be covered.

 

S/ 4.2.6.8          The suitability, position and compliance will be tested at Equipment Control, and may be re-examined at any time during practice and competition.

 

Regards,

S

 

 

Load too many pellets in Air Pistol

 

Dear sir,

 

Re your excellent revision of the teaching of air pistol rules to the multitude, I have now come to the place of loading two pellets into an air pistol, a situation dear to my heart as I experienced this situation I think it was at an South Pacific Championship in Christchurch and certainly a (or the) top Australian shooter, a long time ago. I am fairly certain it was an evening shoot at some strange "off range" location, and I think he had fired the pistol.

 

It had never happened previously to me and as the only judge present a immediate "judge’s" decision was made to cancel the target and replace it with a new one as I considered that BOTH pellets would have been affected by the double mass and neither would have hit in the position of a single pellet; AND IT WAS NOT SOMETHING WHICH ANY SANE PERSON WOULD DO DELIBERATELY. My recollection is that my decision was accepted by all concerned.

 

I now come to my current problem - My copy of the ISSF Rules, confirmed by reference to the copy on the ISSF web site a few moments ago does not give the option of "firing the shots" when the situation is detected before the pistol is fired. Rule 8.4.3.1.1.1 - "If the shooter is aware of the situation he must ......has a problem. A range Officer must then supervise the unloading of the pistol and no penalty will be incurred. No extra time ......."

 

Would you please enlighten me, just in case it happens to me again????

 

Response to Load too many pellets in Air Pistol

1.     Detected before the shooter fires the shot(s)

Shooter may ‘unload’ – though this is not expanded on…. The usual rod down the barrel to clear the pellet/s, if this is not achievable within a reasonable time (e.g. nobody has a suitable ‘rod’  readily available) then;

I personally would accept a range official directing the shooter to fire the shot/s AT THE TARGET (for safety), and annul the target.  This would be within the intent of 8.4.3.1.1.1

 

2.     Detected after the shooter fires the shot/s – as per rules

 

Regards

S

 

 

‘Coated’ projectiles

Hello Spencer,
I hope alls well with you all at the NRC.
I got a sample of a .38 cal 148 hollow base swaged lead wadcutter which is electroplated with copper. The question obviously is will it be legal for service match,WA1500 etc. This product almost totally eliminates lead exposure [95%].

Your verdict would be appreciated, if you want a sample I have one left which I could cut in two length ways.
Cheers

Response to ‘Coated’ Projectiles

 

‘Gilded’, ‘washed’, and ‘plated’ projectiles have been around in one form or another for some time (including .22 rimfire), utilising zinc, cadmium, copper, etc. 

 

The question of determining what is a ‘lead’ projectile, and what is ‘jacketed’ sometimes gets to be a fine line.

Some time back, Les Spurrier came up a fairly simple test; haw difficult is it to scratch through the coating?  If the coating can be easily scratched off they have been acceptable; if not, not acceptable

 

This then brings up the definition of ‘easily scratched off’.  In the past, Les and I have used a fairly basic application of dragging the blade of a pocket-knife along the projectile in question and evaluating how easily the lead is exposed.

 

Suggest you try this yourself before sending a ample.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Spencer

 

Note – this one is still being ‘mulled over’; the sample forwarded does not pass the ‘easily scratched off’ test.

 

 

25M ISSF – when must the shooter be at the READY

 

Can you please clarify and answer the following; as it has caused some discussion between coaches and Judges:

In Centre-fire/Sport Rapid Fire Stage & Standard pistol (20 & 10) where shooters choose to rest their pistol/hand on the bench; then at the call of "ATTENTION" and facing away of the targets, the shooter lifts off the bench up to their approximate aiming area (i.e. aligning their sights & position & completing a full lift), then lowers the pistol to the "READY" position before the target faces.

 

Is this allowable?

 

Response to 25M ISSF – when must the shooter be at the READY

 

Well!  Hello to an oldie, but a goodie (along with determining the 45° in the Ready Position, and shooters standing too close to the edge of the firing bench/table)!

 

1.     What are the applicable rules (I have underlined the important words):

 

The Ready Position

8.6.1.3

In the 25 m Rapid Fire Pistol Event, the 25 m Pistol and 25 m Center Fire Pistol Rapid Fire Stages and the 25 m Standard Pistol 20 seconds and 10 seconds series, shooting must start from the READY position. In the READY position, the shooter's arm must point downward at an angle of not greater than 45 degrees from the vertical, but must not be pointed at the ground within the forward edge of the firing point. The arm must remain stationary in this position while waiting either for the appearance of the target or, when electronic scoring targets are used, for the green light(s) to come on.

8.6.1.4

If a shooter raises his arm too soon, or does not lower it sufficiently (see 8.5.2.5 and 8.6.1.3) in the 25 m Rapid Fire Pistol Event or in the Rapid Fire Stage of the 25 m Pistol or 25 m Center Fire Pistol Event, or in the combined 20 seconds and 10 seconds stages of the 25 m Standard Pistol Event he must be warned by a Jury Member (see 8.5.2.5), and the series must be recorded and repeated. Etc. …

RFP

8.6.4.8.5

…At the command “START” the target timer mechanism must be started. The shooters must be in READY position at the end of the countdown 1…

8.6.4.8.6

Before each series the shooter must lower his arm and adopt the READY position. The shooter's arm must remain stationary before the green lights come on, or the targets appear (see also 8.6.1.2 and 8.6.1.3).

‘Sport’ / CF Rapid Fire Stage

8.6.4.9.3.4

Before each shot the shooter must lower his arm and adopt the READY position. His arm must remain stationary before the green light comes on, or the target appears (see also 8.6.1.2 and 8.6.1.3).

8.6.4.9.3.5

The pistol must not be rested on the bench, or shooting table, during the series.

Standard

8.6.4.10.4

Before each series except in the 150 second series the shooter must lower his arm and adopt the READY position. His arm must remain stationary before the green light comes on, or the target appears (see also 8.6.1.2 and 8.6.1.3).

 

2.     What do these rules mean (and intend!)

 

When does the shooter have to come to the Ready Position for the start of a series?

Nowhere do the rules require the shooter to come to the Ready Position immediately the RO calls ‘ATTENTION”; nor has there been for many years.

 

May the shooter ‘rest’ the pistol on the firing bench/table while waiting for the command ‘ATTENTION’?

Nowhere do the rules for ‘Sport’ / CF / RFP prohibit the shooter from resting the pistol on the table/bench while waiting for the RO’s command ‘ATTENTION’.  There are rules about the direction of the pistol (8.2.5.1, 8.6.1.2 ) and when the pistol may be put down (8.2.5.6), but nothing to prohibit ‘resting’.

 

The ‘remain stationary’ bit

·         The rules do require the shooter to be in the Ready Position before the target/s appear, or the green light comes on (the count ‘1’ for RFP)

 

·         The rules do require the shooter to remain stationary in the Ready Position: BUT…

§  The intent IS that the shooter comes from a stationary ‘Ready Position’ to raise the pistol to the target; i.e. not gain any advantage by starting to raise the arm above the required 45° too soon, nor gain an advantage by having the arm in upwards motion even though it is still below 45° when the target/s begin to face.

§  The intent IS NOT that the shooter has to be absolutely motionless for any given period of time (however short) before beginning to raise the arm after the targets begin to face, or the green light comes on

 

3.     A personal example, or two…

 

Center Fire Pistol – Rapid Fire Stage:

·         I shoot revolver in Centre Fire, and I do not use a stopwatch to check when the minute to load is about to expire (as a bonus, I am not hassled if a RO is a second or two out on timing the ‘minute’)

·         I am one of those shooters who do not take anywhere near a minute to load and prepare for a Rapid Fire Stage series (some do, I don’t)

·         I typically dry-fire on the empty chamber during the time before ‘ATTENTION’: I then rest the pistol on the firing bench/table (with due care to the direction of the pistol) – in all this I am not infringing any rules.

§  Sometimes when using this procedure I get myself ready for the command ‘ATTENTION’ by taking a last sight picture and coming to the Ready Position before the RO gives the command

§  Sometimes I am a second or two late:  I know that there should be 7 seconds be